exitpursuedbyasloth:

peppermint-buttler:

exitpursuedbyasloth:

peppermint-buttler:

>longer convo snipped<

you know what no. this pisses me off. why does everyone on this fucking website fawn over sansa like she’s fucking perfect. i understand that she’s got a pretty shitty life, but that doesn’t change the fact that she was entitled stuck-up brat before this. she always felt that she was better than her family and winterfell. jesus christ have you people even glanced at the books? ( S P O I L E R S!!!!!!!) when she’s forced to marry tyrion she treats him like shit when she knows this wasn’t his choice and he tries SO hard to make her happy. even refusing the bedding and refusing to take her virginity. but why does she treat him like shit?? because he doesn’t look like loras tyrell and her life isn’t a fucking fairy tale. and as far as arya goes she treated her like garbage and you fucking know it. Omfg tumblr shut the fuck up.

OH MY GOD, TYRION DIDN’T RAPE SANSA EVEN WHEN HE COULD?! WOW WHAT A GREAT GUY OH THAT DESERVES SUCH PRAISE WAY TO GO AT NOT BEING A RAPIST TYRION WOW SANSA YOU ARE SUCH A BITCH FOR NOT MORE APPRECIATIVE THAT TYRION ONLY MOLESTED YOU INSTEAD OF RAPING YOU.

HERE TYRION, YOU DESERVE A COOKIE FOR NOT BEING A RAPIST.

Now listen close and listen hard, scooter, Sansa Stark doesn’t owe Tyrion shit. Not one little tiny rabbit shit. He doesn’t get praise for not being a rapist, and she shouldn’t show gratitude that he only molested her and didn’t rape her. We do not praise men for not raping people when they know they could get away with it. Fuck that noise.

And could you please specify where exactly Sansa treated Tyrion like shit? Because all she ever was distant and cold and courteous, because she is a 13-year old girl forced to marry her family’s murderers who could be raped at any moment by any of them so why exactly would you expect her to be warm and friendly? Do you think Tyrion is entitled to Sansa’s love? Her affection? Her spread legs? Her gratitude for not raping her? That’s some lovely logic: I didn’t hurt you as much as I could have, so love me.

Could you also please specify where exactly Tyrion tried so hard to make her happy? I think we’ve established the fact that Not Raping Her doesn’t count. He’s her enemy, he’s trying to destroy her family, it’s really rather insulting to say that he could do anything to make his forced child bride happy. Do you think Sansa is so empty that her enemy bringing her lemoncakes with her brother’s blood on his hands is going to make her happy? And it is on his hands, even if just by association. He is loyal to the Lannisters, supports them, they are Sansa’s enemy. He is her enemy, she cannot trust him, she lives in fear every day.

She doesn’t treat Tyrion coldly because he is ugly, she treats him coldly because he is a Lannister. THIS IS EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE TEXT.

I don’t want any Lannister, [Sansa] wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon.

And in case you missed it, Willas was older and crippled, he wasn’t exactly a beautiful knight in shining armor (but he was safe, and probably wouldn’t beat her, and Sansa just wanted to stop living in fear). She also had dreams/fantasies about Sandor which were sexual in nature (albeit kind of innocently so), and he was no looker either. Tyrion even asks her if she would prefer Lancel Lannister (who is handsome and her age), and she declines. If all she cared about was beauty, why would she do this? Why would she invent a kiss between her and the guy missing half a face? Why would she want to marry Willas?

If she’s cold to Tyrion, it’s because he’s a Lannister, not because he’s ugly. He’s her enemy and she fears him, and with good reason (not the least of which was that he was a belligerent ass who scared the crap out of her on their wedding night).

She doesn’t even treat him that poorly, the worst thing she ever did was refusing to kneel during the cloak exchange. And you know what? Screw Tyrion’s feelings, he brought that on himself by attempting to manhandle her and yank her around like a dog, even knowing she’s been terribly physically abused and her abuser just groped her right in front of him. Had he simply showed her some courtesy, used his words, and asked her to please kneel, or said “My lady, if you please…” and gestured to the floor, Sansa would have gotten his meaning. And she’s neither cruel nor rude, she likely would have knelt. But he attempted to treat her like an object he could control by yanking on her skirt, so she mentally said “Fuck it”, and protested this forced marriage the only way she could. She did not consent to this, and holy hell was she ever brave and fierce as hell for refusing to kneel, basically insulting the Lannisters in front of everybody and the gods.

And while Tyrion may have been bullied and forced into a marriage (Tywin did say he would find him a suitable bride if he refused Sansa),  he still has all the power, gains everything and loses nothing through it. Tyrion has a wife he can mount whenever he wants, heirs, Winterfell, and he can still keep Shae around. Sansa gets her rightful claim to her home stolen from her, rape at the hands of her family’s murderer, a lifetime of fear and watching what she says, and a possible early unnatural death after she pops out an heir-and-a-spare. So no, Sansa and Tyrion aren’t in the same boat at all.

As far as Arya goes, they have a typical sisterly relationship, which yes, involves being little shits to each other sometimes. Arya was as bad as Sansa (do you not recalling her pelting Sansa with food when Sansa was talking to the crown prince?). That’s just how sisters, and siblings in general, are. That doesn’t mean they don’t love each other or never get along. Sansa tried to involve Arya in things Sansa enjoyed (hoping Arya would enjoy them too), and her desire to see Arya not be so wild had just as much to do with wanting Arya not to fuck up her future as it did with Sansa being embarrassed by her. Arya was full of piss and vinegar, and while that’s fun to read about, it could get her into shitloads of trouble if she never learned restraint. Sansa treated her with exasperation, and some jealousy and hurt, and Arya did the same, they both kind of thought the other had it so good. In Arya’s mind, Sansa was so pretty and perfect, while she was so clumsy and plain. In Sansa’s mind, Ayra her father’s and brother’s little darling, their favorite, while Sansa was the odd wolf out and her family thought she was silly.

Lastly, if Sansa was such a stuck up entitled brat who thought she was better than her family, why the hell does that family think so highly and fondly of her? Why would Sansa concern herself over the feelings of her bastard brother? Because Jon remembers Sansa only ever using the word ‘half-brother’ to refer to him, and not bastard, not after she found out what it meant, that it was an unkind word. He also remembers Sansa teaching him how to court girls. Which means Sansa thought he would need that skill at some point. She never even thought that her bastard brother wouldn’t get married, wouldn’t need skills in talking to ladies. Do you know how bastards are generally treated or thought of? Sansa clearly knows how most people, even courtly nobles, would treat bastards, but she never treats Jon as any less than her full-blooded brothers, never treats him less because of his birth (the worst thing she ever thinks/says about Jon was that sometimes he could get jealous because he was a bastard, which she said in a sympathetic way, and hey, that was true, sometimes Jon was a little jealous/envious of his siblings).

You know, I don’t think Sansa is actually perfect, but for just once, I would like some criticism of her that isn’t based on misogyny, victim-blaming, poor reading comprehension, or people projecting onto Sansa every girl who was ever mean to/rejected them.

Okay, first off, can you stop bringing feminist ideals into this series?

No.

But the fact that you characterize Not Getting Raped as a “feminist ideal” is some ominous foreshadowing for the rest of your post.

*SPOILER ALERT* It gets so much fucking worse. If misogyny, victim-blaming, and rape culture bullshit causes unbridled rage in you, mayhaps I suggest you keep scrolling until you see some kittens or Supernatural gifs or the dudes from Supernatural dressed like kittens. Cause it only gets worse from here on out.

Seriously, feminism doesn’t exist in Westeros. Women are treated with inferiority and that’s all they’ve ever known because that’s just the way it is in this series.

Women are treated with inferiority in Westeros and that’s just the way it is? May I draw your attention to a little place called

While the word ‘feminism’ does not exist in Westeros, the concept of it does, if had bothered to pay attention to virtually any of the female narratives. Cersei, Sansa, Brienne, Asha, pretty much any female narrator is going to have these crazy feminist thoughts, and so much of their story is about how the patriarchy totally fucks them over. Kind women, wicked women, girlie women, warrior women, it doesn’t matter, the patriarchy fucks with them all in the end.

It was also written with a heavily feminist slant, because as GRRM puts it, he has this wild and crazy notion that women are people, too.

Further, Sansa knew that she was going to have to be married to someone that she didn’t necessarily love. Yes, she thought she loved Joffrey at one point, but obviously that changed. I would have been grateful to be rid of him with marrying Tyrion. Tyrion defended her multiple times to and from Joffrey. She still treated him like a villain.  I understand that he’s a Lannister, but to be perfectly honest, he is the best of them but she refuses to give him a chance to prove himself.

She’s cold and taciturn when it comes to him when he tries to make any effort to grow closer to her. The way I see it, this was her best option. Her life, as I said, isn’t a fairy tale, and it won’t ever be. But she’s so naive that she doesn’t see it. There was no way that the Lannisters would have allowed a marriage to Willas. It would have honestly done more harm than good because eventually the Tyrells and Lannisters would be put at odds. Tyrion insured that she wasn’t Joffrey’s to torment any more and that, in itself, should be enough to at least give him a chance, given her circumstances.

He’s not entitled to a chance. Because Sansa Stark doesn’t owe him shit. To paraphrase something I once read, women are not slot machines you put kindness coins into and sex comes out. This is a concept that is even understood in Westeros, to some extent.

And she treats him like a villain because he IS a villain in her story, he is a Lannister loyal to the Lannisters, who are in the middle of slaughtering her family. How is he not a villain to her?

So she’s cold. She’s a child forced into a marriage to her enemy, who molested her on their wedding night. She’s basically waiting around to be raped, she lives in fear everyday. You want her to spread her legs for her captor just because he is occasionally nice to her?

(And since you seem to have missed it, being married to Tyrion does NOT protect her from Joffrey, he’s threatened to rape, has ever intention of. And nobody would do anything about it, he’s the King, you think anyone cares if he rapes a traitor’s daughter? The Mad King Aerys burned people alive and raped his sister.)

As far as him not raping her, that’s why he stopped. He knew that in taking her virginity against her will it would be rape, and he simply couldn’t do it. Do you understand what that meant for him? He was risking the wrath of his father and the ridicule of his entire family. Sansa knew that, too. If she didn’t, she’s even more naive than I originally thought. Still, she treats him as a villain. 

Men do not deserve praise for not raping people, to suggest otherwise is just a bunch of rape culture bullshit. And don’t give me any lip about “Oh well, everybody rapes in Westeros”, because that argument is invalid, void, just plain no good.

Although I feel the need to point out that Tyrion didn’t stop raping Sansa because he felt it was wrong, he stopped raping her because he wanted Sansa to welcome it and love him first. That’s a selfish act. Because while the former is concerned about the victim, the latter is concerned about the victimizer. It was about what HE wanted. HE wanted to be loved and welcomed into her.

No, they’re not in the same boat, but it doesn’t change the fact that Tyrion wasn’t responsible for this.

As far as her family goes, she treated the all with inferiority because she felt that she was meant for royalty and that her family simply didn’t fit the bill. I’m not saying that she didn’t love her family by any means, but it doesn’t change the fact that she was willing to desert everything she had ever known for Joffrey at one point. 

Because that’s what her parents taught her to do. When a woman gets married/betrothed, she becomes part of that family, she must put it ahead of her own, that’s what they teach little noble girls in Westeros.

And I’ve given you plenty of examples where Sansa treats her family well, with kindness and generosity, and you keep insisting that she was a snobbish brat, but fail to give examples (please, offer up something that doesn’t amount to normal sisterly squabbling). I mean, I could SAY Sansa was actually secretly a dragon, but without textual evidence…

She’s got a generally disagreeable personality.

Yeah, all that wanting everybody to be happy and have love and cake and puppies and for everything to be nice again, and for good things to happen to good people and for the wicked ones to be punished and her being genuinely kind to people that no other character is (like Lollys or Sandor) is just so disagreeable. Man, what a fucking bitch.

I realize she’s got a shitty life. I really do understand that. But she treats everyone around her with such disdain, that it’s really hard to like her. I just wish that people would stop bring femenist issues into this with shit like “oh she isn’t entitled to love him just because he didn’t rape her.” The thing is, given the setting of this series, she may not be entitled to love him, but she needs to accept him. Because the women in Westeros don’t really have much choice so why should she be any different?

Oh, I see what the problem is, your opinions are just gross, disgusting, and misogynistic. You should probably do something about that.

I mean when your argument is “Women are raped all the time in Westeros, so what’s the big deal, why does Sansa have to be such a bitch about it?”, you just need to go sit in the fucking corner and think about how goddamn wrong you are and how you could go about changing that. Because you’re advocating a 13-year old child should just accept being raped and not be such a whinypants about it. These are the words that are coming out of your mouth.

And as far as people “projecting onto Sansa every girl who was ever mean to/rejected them.” lmfao, I’m a girl, I just don’t support brats who think that it’s okay to treat other people like shit, just because their life might suck.

I need to also point out under no modern circumstances would I be supporting most of the things I’m saying, but the truth of it is this is a medival setting and that’s just the way things are.

OH WELL THAT MAKES IT ALL OKAY THEN WOW I WAS WRONG YOU IS COOL AND NOT A VICTIM-BLAMING MISOGYNIST WHO’S JUST MAD SANSA DIDN’T IMMEDIATELY SPREAD HER LEGS FOR YOUR FAVE.

I really just don’t agree with how everyone in this fandom like to treat Sansa like an angel when she’s got some pretty big flaws, like everyone else in this series. She’s naive and proud. She plays the victim. It’s really just “oh, poor me.” with her, and that gets on my nerves. Granted, she is a victim. But nothing comes out of focusing on that and treating people that want to help make her life better like crap.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree, dear.

Gross.

Disgusting.

Misogynistic.

Wrong.

Go sit in the corner. And I’m not your fucking “dear”, you odious asshole.

Ok, I feel a need to react to this, and play the devil’s advocate, so to speak, for a change.

First of all - why alienate people, make yourself and them angry and miserable, when you can make them understand and join your cause with genuine conviction? I think that for an argument to get through and for people to get a little more mindful of the world around them and the reality of the complex problems that this-or-that group faces, it is best to approach them with your mind open and your words kind, not scornful or mocking or derisive. Because most people are, or so I believe, inclined to strive for the good, to do what is right and hurts less people - and if they object to a just cause or have a discriminating opinion of someone or something, they do so out of ignorance, not malevolence. Or spite and angry self-assurance, if you manage to alienate them.

Keeping this in mind, I shall try to give my arguments here, and point out the problematic parts in exipursuedbyasloth’s argument.

[…] pretty much any female narrator is going to have these crazy feminist thoughts, and so much of their story is about how the patriarchy totally fucks them over. Kind women, wicked women, girlie women, warrior women, it doesn’t matter, the patriarchy fucks with them all in the end.

Although I agree with this, I would say the problem goes even deeper than that – it is not just about women being forcibly assigned „appropriate“ roles and places. It is about every individual – regardless of station and gender or age – being socially identified, defined by various more-or-less external variables they happen to be born into. It may suit some, it may be easier for some, but the options for an acceptable lifestyle for a nobleman’s son are as limited as for his daughter, although they may be different. For example, women can’t fight, but men have to; and both sons and daughters are both expected to marry whom their elders consider suitable, regardless of their preferences. The whole system of the societal expectations oppresses those who do not conform to the narrowly-defined concept of duties and rights. Arguably, the poor are the worst off, with the fewest practical options to stand up for their rights.

Men do not deserve praise for not raping people, to suggest otherwise is just a bunch of rape culture bullshit. And don’t give me any lip about “Oh well, everybody rapes in Westeros”, because that argument is invalid, void, just plain no good.

If there is a group of people in which every one is a rapist, except for one – the latter individual then, arguably, does seem to stand higher on the average moral level of that group, at least in this aspect. And who does or does not deserve praise… Well, that is more a matter of semantics and custom, really, but I would argue that if someone manages to refrain from hurting someone in spite of external pressure and cultural expectations (as Tyrion had done with Sansa), it is certainly more admirable than doing it in alignment with them (or in fear of repercussions) – if not quite laudable in and of itself.

Although I feel the need to point out that Tyrion didn’t stop raping Sansa because he felt it was wrong, he stopped raping her because he wanted Sansa to welcome it and love him first. That’s a selfish act. Because while the former is concerned about the victim, the latter is concerned about the victimizer. It was about what HE wanted. HE wanted to be loved and welcomed into her.

I would like to point out that it is in man’s nature to feel bad when hurting someone and being rewarded with a sense of peace and fellowship when doing the opposite. The society functions in a reward/punishment system, and so does nature and evolution and everything, really. Yes, you can say his restraining from consummating his marriage with Sansa was an utterly selfish act, but – to expand on your argument – then everything is. I think that his motivations were multi-factorial, really. In trying to avoid hurting himself, he chose the action that also happened not to deepen his wife’s misery. He could have fucked her and then brood in self-hatred and self-pity, for example. He could have tried to manipulate her into thinking that he was left with no choice, or that he would do it because it is the best thing he could do for her in her situation. I think that Tyrion knew that going through with the bedding would hurt Sansa, and he didn’t want to do that. He could have put more effort into diminishing her misery, but it would cost him no effort at all to hurt her even more.  

Oh, I see what the problem is, your opinions are just gross, disgusting, and misogynistic. You should probably do something about that.

I would just like to point out that sentences like this tend to have the exact opposite effect, and instead of prompting people to contemplate their stances and rethink their opinions, they will feel justified in maintaining it or, being offended and discouraged, just dismiss the whole problem and stop paying any mind to it – instead of becoming more knowledgeable and more compassionate.

Because you’re advocating a 13-year old child should just accept being raped and not be such a whinypants about it. These are the words that are coming out of your mouth. Go sit in the corner. And I’m not your fucking “dear”, you odious asshole.

This kind of attack – apart from being a straw man – is just uncalled for, hostile and counter-productive when trying to get an argument through.

My point is – I appeal to you all to try and be more civil and understanding when speaking for a cause – the more so the closer to your heart that cause is.

In spite of coming dangerously close to sounding cliché and saccharine – maybe, instead of creating more enemies, adding more ignorant and cruel people to our list of doomed humanity, we can urge each other to care more, to come closer to understanding the problematic reality – and strive to work together to make it better.

(Source: acetrainerkamau)